JK and MotS Editing >> Gameplay, Story, and Concepts >> Jedi Knight (impossible) realistic Mod suggestion.     (Moderator: Admins) Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Post 24-Jul-2016 02:27        

***Background info***

First of all, hello people, that is my 1st message here.

Well, for years I’ve been playing this game, and all the time I admire and enjoy it. Decade after release of Dark Forces 2, I’ve decided to discover it again. Second experience wasn’t, however, as the first one: I did not, liked literally everything of it, as i did before, yet I sill enjoyed the game, and find it way much better of any games relased back back in 2005-2008.

Outdated graphic never bothered me, however simplified (compared with the games of 2007) gameplay did. Seeing how people were modding different kind of games, I came up with an idea, that gameplay improvement may change the whole experience of Dark Forces II.

So I took a notebook, and started to write down all ideas I had in my mind – how does perfect Jedi Knight should look like. I've never accomplished anything, mainly because of the lack of knodlegde, experience, utilities and tools.

But few days ago, when I've discovered THIS website, I suddenly remembered about that notebook. Since I saw impressive amount of work done here, I thought, that someone might be interested in modding old Dark Forces game in a way, I saw it.


I thought, that it would be a good idea to share my thoughts here, to see people's reaction - and if the reaction will be positive, maybe someone (brave and skillful enogh) might eventually do it (at least a some of it).

If anyone is interested anyhow in accomplishing and impelemting a part or entirely feature of my mod concept – I officially allow anyone to lend any ideas of my mod, as well as to accomplish it entirely!

For this, I can only say that you have my blessing! And may the force be with you ;-)

Man, that is amazing, that the game which was made almost 20 years ago still gets updates from the fans community.

***Intro ***

In 1997 the Dark Forces 2 was amazing. I still enjoy playing it, although I am not entirely happy with all gameplay aspects. I know, back in 1997 many things were common for all games of the genre, but from today’s perspective, some stuff does not look cool at all (at least for me), that is how I came up with the initial ideas for this mod. I don’t think that this game should be arcade at all. From a game, with such realistic cutscenes, I simply wanted more realism. The one and only purpose of this Mod is to try to bring more Realism into the gameplay, affect the atmosphere of the game, and bring absolutely new experience.

Although, I am not sure, what the Engine of Jedi Knight is capable of, but I think, at least a part of these ideas, may be accomplished and implemented.

We’re done with my introduction. Let’s talk about features now.

***Features***

First of all,
“GUNS, GUNS, GUNS...” (c) "Patriot", from Interstate '76 (another 1997 favorite game)

1. I wanted to experience a game, where Kyle will not to carry all his arsenal, in an invisible inventory-backpack. Instead, I wanted to see a game with a weapon drop/swap functions. I would like Kyle to be able to carry, apart of his beloved Bryar Pistol, "fists", thermal granades and Lightsaber, only one more gun (plus one in the hands, equipped). To make explanation of this feature easier, lets number them [turn your imagination “ON” ]:
1. Fists, 2. Lightsaber, which is hanging on the belt when inactive, 3. Bryar holstered in holster, 4.granades on the belt (with quantity limited at 4 or 6 granades; he is not a grenadier after all).

But (!) Kyly also have slot number "5" for his back, and slot number "6" for his hands.

So, let’s say, Kyle is carrying a “Wookie bowcaster” on his back (№5) and a “E-11 Stormtrooper rifle” in his hands (№6). He can easily switch between those two guns (5 and 6), replacing the one, which is on his back, with a one, which is in his hands; but if he decides to use “Bryar Pistol” instead for example, he will automatically drop the gun, which was in his hands, in this case – E-11.

In case, if Kyle needs to use/pick up from the ground/ something else, he can drop and pickup (or swap instantly) a trophy gun. Swap replaces the gun equipped in hands with the one, lying on the ground. In order to change the weapon “stored” on Kyle’s back, he needs first to switch between 5 and 6 (to get the gun in his hands), and only then he may replace it.

2. I would love to see Kyle carrying all his Arsenal on him. That’s photoshop!

[https://s32.postimg.org/z1ky55sph/Jedi.jpg]

3. Blaster bolts fired by all guns should be much more faster, harder to dodge, in order to have more resemblances with the Star Wars Movies.

4. I wanted to make the guns much more deadlier than they are. Any non-droid enemy, should be dead from 1 to 2 shots. I am not sure, if game’s engine would allow this to happen, but having a possibility to make a headshot sounds amazing. One shot – one dead. No matter what kind of enemies we are talking about, headshot always kill. Period.

5. Also, having a fire-range limit sounds realistic. According to the EU wiki, blaster pistols normally can hit not further than 50 meters, rifles 80-100 meters. Thus will prevent players “cheating” by sniping enemies with Bryar from a safe distance.

[Tech. info - since in many game units of measurement simply do not exist, i say, characters height might be used as a unit. One kyle in length app. 1.8 meters]

6. Reload. If there would be a weapon’s clips and a necessity to perform a reload, that would be awesome. Let say after 30 or 50 shots for E-11, or so.

[Tech. info – for 3rd person view, same animation (weapon switch) can be used: but with an appropriate sound, it is possible to deliver proper result]


7. E-11 Stormstrooper Rifle. Unlike the name, in the reality this gun is not a Rifle, but a "SMG". Look at size of that thing! Also, according to the expanded universe, E-11 was one of the most powerful, yet compact and extremely precise blaster. Ben Kenobi himself, not without purpose, was stating the precision of Stormtroopers in New Hope. I wanted, to make E-11 as accurate, as Bryar, yet consuming more energy. Also, I’d prefer to see two types of attack for this one: just like in Jedi Outcast. But recoil caused by rapid fire, should bring inaccuracy as a side-effect. I’d say 2 energy cells for each shot, for both modes.

8. One of the first thoughts! Wookie Bowcaster must shot exactly as it did in the movie! Not that green fireball, but a same shot like E-11. It must have superior damage though. Remember how Chewie shot that swoop-bike in RotJ? Precise, powerful, but slow with strong recoil (for strong creatures) – that is the Bowcaster.

9. More Guns! There must be a lot of new pistols, carbines, rifles! I’d love to see Rodians armed with a different kind of blaster (shooting green bolt), pity that this gun cannot be used by Kyle. Perhaps deleted content?! Original Star Wars Visuals depicted a good variety of Blasters. Not necessarily to do all them unique. They may copy each other’s characteristics (or differs at accuracy, speed and damage), but they must look different. I say, there must be at least 3 new blasters: Rodian thug blaster (is it SoroSuub ELG-3A blaster?), DH-17, DL-44.

Why DH-17? Because the game starts with Gran’s pointing his DH-17 at Kyle’s head from the back, who is eventually disarmed. And then, when the game starts he already holds his bryar pistol instead in hands. Not realistic at all!

Proof:

[http://cdn.wikimg.net/strategywiki/images/b/b0/SWJKDF2_1_double-cross_on_nar_shaddaa.png]

[https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2290/2382921404_d1a121a179_b.jpg]

DL-44? Really?! ;-)

10. Bryar. I am sure, if you guys know (not originally, but latterly invented) Bryar the gun's story? As Expanded Universe tell us, Morgan Katarn presented to Kyle as a gift for his Academy Enrollment achievement a “Bryar the Blaster Rifle”. But Kyle (according to the other sources Morgan himself) sawn-off the rifle, in order to make it concealable (according to the same other source, Morgan saw-off the old looking rifle, which Kyle would refuse to use, into a fancy cool pistol). You might have already seen a mod for KOTOR made by fan, adding a Bryar Rifle into the game.

[http://s14.photobucket.com/user/inyri/media/bscreen1.jpg.html]

Although at the beginning I liked the idea, now I don’t like that particular design. I’d prefer to see bryar rifle with a wooden butt stock, without pistol grip – as old fashion rifle design, and having more resemblances with DLT-19 Heavy Blaster Rifle.

Why I am saying this? I wanted to have it in the game as well. It could be found, for instance, in Morgan's house (maybe he had second one :-)). It should be as accurate as Bryar Pistol, but having great recoil, rifle-long range and double damage, killing thugs with one shot.

[https://s32.postimg.org/4zsetjuth/Rifle.jpg]

11. Did you guys enjoyed playing Jedi Outcast? I did. I also loved running around with a lightsaber switched off, holding a hilt in Kyle’s hand; not the disappearing one. I’d say, this one, “must have” feature. Whenever, Kyle switches off his lightsaber, we should see a hilt on the screen.

[https://s31.postimg.org/76irph0x7/Untitled_2.jpg]

12. Guns (except fists) and Saber does not work anyhow underwater. Spare those poor creatures, avoid them, or exterminated from the shore. You can also use the Force to kill them.

Inspired by experience from Jedi Outcast. That was pretty cool, when Kyle was switching his lightsaber off, each time he was getting into the water.

Although, I don’t know what to do with these underwater lattice blocking our way, though which Kyle must burst through… Perhaps a switch next to it is a solution?

13. Fists are doing double damage (to encourage players, at least sometimes use it). Admit it, a good punch can switch off even a formidable guy.

14. By using fists, Kyle can eliminate, perform a stealth kill, quietly remove enemies. If approached from the back, and not being spotted, Kyle can break a neck with bare hands. Not sure about animations though, but idea is nice. Perhaps the most difficult thing to accomplish. Also, should Kyle be awarded with affiliations of the Dark Side after each eliminated foe by this, drity, non fair way?

15. Thermal grenade and other explosives should be much more dangerous. If grenade explode under Kyle, he should be dead no matter what. Granade exploded at a close range takes significant part of health bar. Avoid those Grans and Yellow-stormtrooper, or kill them in first place.

16. Land mines were pain-in-the-[censored] during all my gameplay experience. Only Thermal Grenades helped me to burst through explode them. I’d prefer, it they would explode after a direct blast shot from any weapon.

*** MISC CHANGES***

17. Properly armed foes. Bowcasters must not be as popular, as E-11. On the other hand, E-11 is a very expensive gun, available only for elite thugs. All different kind of mobsters should be armed respectively with a simple, but vary blaster pistols.

18. Replace Tuskens by different kind of foe. Sulon is not a place for Tuskens. They should be replaced by a different kind of foe. They should be replaced or simply renamed. They don’t look like Tuskens anyway!

p.s. very first foe in the bar, was Tusken.

19. I think the most bothering gameplay thing, is all manner of floating power-ups or trophy guns. Perhaps its possible to make them failing to the ground, and not floating at all. Thus would improve process significantly. Must have.

20. Perhaps scattered everywhere health packs and shield rechargers are not the best way to experience serious simulator. Disposing out of them entirely, and reducing amount of foes. Or maybe Half-Life style powerups is a solution here? Or at least, doing something similar as it was in Jedi Outcast.

21. Strafe-dodge side jumps. Making gunshots fast and deadly will leave not much choice to survive, but to quickly jump to a side. Not sure though, how this should be made, but I think a bit of acrobatics can breathe a new life into this old game.

22. Making legs, hands & torso visible in 1st person. I don’t think that It is hard thing to do. Perhaps, the easiest.

*** FORCE ***

23. Perhaps the most difficult one, but the most amazing: Force lighthing energies the water and damages everything within small area with electricity (like a blastershot) damage!

24. Also, not an easy one. Throwing selected things at your enimies by Force Throw. Simply point at them, during “targeting” (holding Force Throw) at your enemy.


****************************************************

Level reconstructions/urbanization.

Although I enjoyed playing first two levels, especially the very first one (bar shooting is my favorite moment), I really didn’t like the idea of being in a labyrinth. I know, back in 90s there simply was no way to make gameplay interesting, but to create a maze full of similar looking doors and corridors.
I did enjoy playing Jedi Outcast. But I liked Jedi Academy even more, mostly because it (gives a choice, yeah!) was much more dynamic. There were no long, mazed-style, labyrinth looking levels.

I really hated first level in Jedi Outcast the Kejim Base. Do you remember that …. T-shaped Bridge? Who is going to build bases like that anyway?!


A good friend of mine, some time ago, tried to build a demo-scene of Nar Shaada, with these two first combined levels in one, but significantly shortened. He added a door, through which fast-player can see 8T-88 getting out to the Hangar. Workaround path led through streets, but it was very short, and in a few moments, there was a meeting next to the shuttle.

As soon as my friend got himself his finals completed, he never, unfortunately, finish that project. But his project reminded me about my notebook, and I added one more entry. That would be cool, I think, not sure though, if all gameplay would be less mazed-style, more like wandering in the city. More NPC, less corridors, more action, more dynamic. Area requiring player to holster the gun, otherwise panic is guaranteed, and character disguised is compromised.

Just look at this article

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mission_to_Nar_Shaddaa_(5_ABY)

But that would mean a recounstruction of the whole game. I think, it’s easier to build enitrely new game, on a newer engine, rather than doing this.

Again, outdated graphics and obsolete-looking polygons (btw, amazing work at “Enchanced” mod), never were a problem. But I think, to accomplish THIS particular idea, it’s easier to create new rather than edit old unknown code.

Perhaps one day, I might try to do something on unity or UDK engine.

That is!

I would like to hear your comment!

P.S. If someone wants to lend an idea or two – May the force, be with You! Feel free to do anything, i dont require any mention as well.
Post 29-Jul-2016 23:39        

this would be THE ultimate mod for JK, but is a shame that it'll probably never be made, as this seems to take more(like, much more) than one person to do, and the jk fanbase seems to be dying a bit each day
Post 31-Jul-2016 00:03        

Hello and welcome.
First of all, some of these little things have been done both on Massassi.net and here, if you know where to look. I think one mod was adding to the player model each time he picked something up, another made the reload fuctions (one extra key or just press fire again), I've seen first person legs, extra dodge moves, and someone worked on actual headshots. Hm... Would personal shields protect against those?

And there have been a few "realisms" I've tried myself, but mostly it has to do with accelerations and decelerations in moving objects and their sounds (and any extra details I can fit within the available 24 channels). We all make our small contributions to improving the game and gameplay. And sometimes completely different gameplays (some successful, others not).

Jurgen Krace wrote:
since in many game units of measurement simply do not exist, i say, characters height might be used as a unit. One kyle in length app. 1.8 meters


I actually came to that conclusion myself, so I mapped 0.1 JKUnit to 1 meter for simplicity (could be some silly fraction in there but too complicated ). Also 1 "velocity" seems to translate to 0.1 JKU per second so 1m/s. And angular velocity is 1°/s.

Jurgen Krace wrote:
7. E-11 Stormstrooper Rifle. Unlike the name, in the reality this gun is not a Rifle, but a "SMG". Look at size of that thing! Also, according to the expanded universe, E-11 was one of the most powerful, yet compact and extremely precise blaster. Ben Kenobi himself, not without purpose, was stating the precision of Stormtroopers in New Hope. I wanted, to make E-11 as accurate, as Bryar, yet consuming more energy. Also, I’d prefer to see two types of attack for this one: just like in Jedi Outcast. But recoil caused by rapid fire, should bring inaccuracy as a side-effect. I’d say 2 energy cells for each shot, for both modes.


Yet if you look at the movie, our heroes barely get hit by a Stormtrooper. Those lasers seem to be flying quite wildly.

Jurgen Krace wrote:
11. Did you guys enjoyed playing Jedi Outcast? I did. I also loved running around with a lightsaber switched off, holding a hilt in Kyle’s hand; not the disappearing one. I’d say, this one, “must have” feature. Whenever, Kyle switches off his lightsaber, we should see a hilt on the screen.


Well, I can't remember much punching done in Outcast... I think the turned off saber replaced the fists. So, are we gonna punch with the hilt in hand? Or just something to have ready while trying to be stealthy? Don't remember many stealth missions in JK.

Jurgen Krace wrote:
12. Guns (except fists) and Saber does not work anyhow underwater. Spare those poor creatures, avoid them, or exterminated from the shore. You can also use the Force to kill them.


What about grenades or mines? I'm sure you can set them off in the water. Throwing them great distances would be a problem... Not to mention any added "blast radius".

Jurgen Krace wrote:
Yellow-stormtrooper


For "realism's" sake, those colors don't actually match what they carry. Those colored pauldrons signify their ranks more than anything. This is "in-game" mechanic to help the player identify what guns they use.

Jurgen Krace wrote:
16. Land mines were pain-in-the-[censored] during all my gameplay experience. Only Thermal Grenades helped me to burst through explode them. I’d prefer, it they would explode after a direct blast shot from any weapon.


Yeah, weapons don't collide with weapons. It will only react to explosives or "collisions" (it actually gets a larger collision sphere when placed) with people or moving "architecture" (doors, vehicles, crushing walls, etc). But I did discover one other way to set them off and that was by swinging my saber. But if the blast range is gonna be increased, that won't help either.

Jurgen Krace wrote:
19. I think the most bothering gameplay thing, is all manner of floating power-ups or trophy guns. Perhaps its possible to make them failing to the ground, and not floating at all. Thus would improve process significantly. Must have.


Fancy mechanics to make it easier to find power-ups. The spinning part was removed in MotS. But yeah, having them placed in a particular way in various places, and the dropped ones should maybe be rotated and their collide sizes set to that specific height. But that can cause problems because I've done that and the player could not pick them up unless crouching and having to deliberately be right on its center. That is why the collision size (making it its landed/rested size) is so "big". If you are thinking per-poly physics, sorry no such luck. Best one can hope for is something like Asylum of Mortality, but then you'd have to beg SM Sith Lord for those arithmetics and algebra.

Jurgen Krace wrote:
20. Perhaps scattered everywhere health packs and shield rechargers are not the best way to experience serious simulator. Disposing out of them entirely, and reducing amount of foes. Or maybe Half-Life style powerups is a solution here? Or at least, doing something similar as it was in Jedi Outcast.


I've worked on such health/power stations some. Only problem is that you cannot hold activate in this game. Using motion to cancel was one solution. Or a limited Dispenser could also work. Press space for each medkit, railcharge, powercell, what have you.


People have tried doing a new JK engine. Almost same JKL levels, 3DO models (maybe the enhanced pack), COG scripts, new MAT format but can still load the old, but that got scrapped. I heard some trying to remake it in JO, JA and Unreal (saw something about a JKL to UT3 converter), but haven't heard much progress on that. I'm trying to get into the Source stuff, but have no idea if I'll take on such a task as to remake the whole JK game(s) fully. As Ranhcase said, it would be one hell of a project and doubts that any single person would take on alone.

And then the age old debate: Exploration vs Linear/Corridor gameplay. Yeah, shouldn't be too convoluted. Can't remember if it was level 17 or 18 that threw me through circles several times, as well as the large Nar Shaddaa CTF level. But linear does get boring. A good balance is what's needed... I think there are a few good levels like that out there. But we each have our own tastes in these matters.

Anyways, some good ideas, people will probably make a few things here and there and turn them into individual mods. Maybe some "overlapping duplicates" (someone takes Bryar rifle, electric water and reload, someone else takes reload, electric water and DH-17, and another takes DH-17, reload and Bryar rifle slightly modified). And maybe just one thing here makes it into a level. Who Knows.

/Edward
Post 31-Jul-2016 15:38        

Good day people

Quote:
this would be THE ultimate mod for JK, but is a shame that it'll probably never be made, as this seems to take more(like, much more) than one person to do, and the jk fanbase seems to be dying a bit each day


Thanks for the good review man.

Quote:
First of all, some of these little things have been done both on Massassi.net and here, if you know where to look.


Yep, I did register here first. Latterly I've found Massassi.net

Quote:
I think one mod was adding to the player model each time he picked something up


I didnt get it. What do you mean? Did you mean that thing >>> https://s32.postimg.org/z1ky55sph/Jedi.jpg

Quote:
another made the reload functions (one extra key or just press fire again)


Nice!!! Glad to hear that!

Quote:
I've seen first person legs


Yeah, i saw this one.

Quote:
extra dodge moves


I saw "Saber Battle X" mod, adding (basically, we can say "replacing") movement mechanic from Jedi Outcast to Jedi Knight. Is that particularly what do you mean?

Quote:
and someone worked on actual headshots


Wow! It appears, so it's a possible thing to do... I am surprised!

Quote:
Hm... Would personal shields protect against those?


In Multiplayer - definitely! In Singleplayer, only if target equipped with one of those. Personal Shield devices (as far as I can remember from EU) are really expensive, and available only for a few, selected mercenaries. Even Boba Fett preferred body armor, rather than Personal Shield. Besides, PS requires a lot of energy for the maintenance, as well as the energy cells for recharging. That thought could be beginning for the "idea №25", with permanently discharging shields... :-)


Quote:
Yet if you look at the movie, our heroes barely get hit by a Stormtrooper. Those lasers seem to be flying quite wildly.


And how precise were Luke, Leia, Han, etc... ;-)

Quote:
Well, I can't remember much punching done in Outcast...


That's right, because Kyle was equipped with a stun baton. No fists there!

Quote:
I think the turned off saber replaced the fists. So, are we gonna punch with the hilt in hand? Or just something to have ready while trying to be stealthy?


No, i wanted to have Fists and Lightsaber separated, and assigned to a different keys.

Quote:
Don't remember many stealth missions in JK.


That's bad. You know, you reminded me about another thought.

Did you guys played Deus Ex (2011)? I really like the idea, that stealth-based style of game playing, is much more appreciated. And to encourage players to choose this play style, stealth-players were awarded with additional experience. Yes, that's exactly what i mean.

What if Kyle had an experience-level system? What if Force Star achieving would be based not on finding a secret places, but killing thugs? More stars for stealth-based progressing.

After all, Katarn is an infiltrator, not a Rambo!

Remember for instance Barons Hed. Just Imagine, you infiltrate unspotted though canals, get to the market plaza, and witness how Grans attacking innocent town folks. Then you need to take decision: to help these poor people (and compromise yourself), or to continue (unspotted, to get more stars, and maybe affiliations with dark side (since you witnessed and never helped them)). I know, sounds as extremely difficult. That's why i never wrote it in my first message above.

Quote:
What about grenades or mines? I'm sure you can set them off in the water. Throwing them great distances would be a problem... Not to mention any added "blast radius".


Good point. I never thought about it. What would you do about them?

Quote:
For "realism's" sake, those colors don't actually match what they carry. Those colored pauldrons signify their ranks more than anything. This is "in-game" mechanic to help the player identify what guns they use.


Agree.

Thanks for detailed analysis.

Do you think it is possible, to add (not to replace) new weapons? That could be my start with DH-17 and SoroSuub ELG-3A blaster (Am I right about with the identification of that Rodian Gun?).

Did you see any mod-bundle, combining minor mods into a something bigger? Combing product peoples labor into a single big bundle sounds like a good idea (even for THIS proposal).

Again, thank you both for quick reply and for your time!
Post 02-Aug-2016 22:02        

For the weapons being added to the player, I may have been thinking of Source Forge.

Extra dodge moves I can't remember the exact mod, but I may have seen it in more than one... Or I'm mixing up games.

The headshot... I'm sure I saw it somewhere. Now I can't find it.

Right, I was thinking of enemy precision. Player precision would be better.

Lightsaber and Fists separated, ok. But still have a turned off hilt as an option? Seems a little... I don't know... Redundant. Unless we actually work in stealth missions.
Ah, yes, at Barons Hed, civilians are in trouble, and you force throw your saber in an arc so your exact location is hidden. But that would require quite some more coding... Also, would Kyle know such "advanced magic" at an "early stage"?

Adding new weapons within the same number slot is possible. The only limit is probably how many models you are allowed to have in one game. I'm making a mod to include a large number of the Worms arsenal, and I've already got 32 weapons working. Only problem is that not all models in hand(s) are showing. :s
But with the swap system it might be somewhat easier.

To combine the little mods done by others can be tricky. They may have a system that contradicts others so a little reprogramming is needed. I, personally, don't have the time or energy to track them all down and try to make them fit.
Besides, I'm trying to finish up and move on... Not terribly successful...
Post 06-Aug-2016 17:00        

Edward wrote:


Fancy mechanics to make it easier to find power-ups. The spinning part was removed in MotS. But yeah, having them placed in a particular way in various places, and the dropped ones should maybe be rotated and their collide sizes set to that specific height. But that can cause problems because I've done that and the player could not pick them up unless crouching and having to deliberately be right on its center. That is why the collision size (making it its landed/rested size) is so "big". If you are thinking per-poly physics, sorry no such luck. Best one can hope for is something like Asylum of Mortality, but then you'd have to beg SM Sith Lord for those arithmetics and algebra.



Simple solution could be to turn off rotation, rotate it sideways and insert a negative offset in the .3do file while keeping the collide size the same.
Post 08-Aug-2016 18:34        

darthbabe96 wrote:

Simple solution could be to turn off rotation, rotate it sideways and insert a negative offset in the .3do file while keeping the collide size the same.


Never actually thought of that... I guess simply because I never modded the actual models but just the templates. Thanks! I'll try to remember that.
Post 09-Aug-2016 05:18        

Haha, if it ever comes up for some reason. Just came to mind while I was reading the forum.
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